51 replies to this topic

[James]

This is a pleading to get the rules of this forum made more clear so that you can post 2 posts in a row in one thread without your account being suspended.  We have a person whose account has been suspended with no notice of how long for making 2 posts in a row.  We believe the forum rules are not clear when it comes to what the moderators are calling "double posting".  We believe that double posting in the context of the forum rules refers to when you cross reference a post several times in different threads.  These are general forum rules and in all other forums "double posting" is considered cross reference posting. We're asking that this person's account be unsuspended because the rules are not clear nor in accordance to other forum rules in the ability to our rights to speak on a US forum in accordance with American laws. 

 

This is Rule 4 in the forum rules regarding "double posting", consecutive posting is not mentioned:

 

"4. No double-posts or cross referencing 

Opening posts with the same content in several forums is unwanted because it divides the discussion and makes it harder for us to gather feedback. Cross references will be grouped together, closed, pinned to the other topic or deleted regardless of their content. Before posting make sure that there are not any existing posts with the same topic."

 

What is happening is because hours and days are passing between posts that this is causing thread death.  A person may make a post then no one will post behind them for days so they are locked out from speaking again in that thread.

 

On most forums, you usually create a different post for each topic on the subject matter and like in writing, you start a new paragraph.  This is to show that you aren't hopping from one subject to another in an unrelated way all in one post.

 

What is happening is that posts are being combined together, they are being edited, truncated and quotes being omitted in the combining process.  When someone is quoted, the quote is being taken out and this causes less interaction to happen. 

 

Please voice your opinion as this is our freedom to speak being impeded. 

[LittleOne]

I don't see the necessity of this rule in the first place.  I think people are competent enough to follow a thread no matter what the content.  Do we really need people executing that much control over what we say?  Can't they find more productive things to do?  AND to suspend someone for posting two times in a row on the forum---well that is just an abuse of power.  Looking at the rule, it doesn't even say it's wrong to post twice in a row.  Come on guys, treat your HZ players better than this.  We all put a lot of money into this game.  You should be treating us much better.

 

Priscilla

[davinci]

Support seems to threaten and suspend more than they support. Maybe, it's time we rethink "supporting" this game with donut purchases.

[PostmodernPugilist]

 

Thank you for this feedback. I want to assure you that this will be seen by our developers and taken into consideration. 

 

We are constantly trying to improve our forums and make it a more welcoming place.  

 

We will be watching this thread to see how it develops with a great deal of interest. 

 

 

EDIT

 

by way of clarification, waiting 30 minutes before posting again, is not considered double posting - in other words giving users time to reply. The aim if moderators merge posts is generally to ensure that the the posts are easier to read. If you think we've made a mistake and made things less easy to read, please discuss it with us in PM. 

 

 

[Pirate]

Will ALL

 

Super

Heroic

Citizens

 

who hates

 

Every

Antagonist

 

of free speech contribute?

 

 

 

[Dogmeat]

The forums is not a message taking service. People don't come here and stick little pieces of paper into the a box marked "Suggestions". They come here as a community to discuss things with other players and hopefully get input from the game developers at the same time. In order to express ideas, you need 2 things: ideas and the ability to express them. Without the freedom to say how you feel in the manner you are accustomed to, no one will be able to say what they want to say. And that means no more ideas, no more problem statements, no more communications, no more community, no more well anything.

 

Sure there has to be a certain degree of decorum and civility, and that's what the mods should be doing. But they should not be telling us the manner in how we are to speak, when we can speak and what we things that can be spoken. Believe you me, if they don't keep things in a more contained environment like the forums. then people will go out into the wider public and express themselves there. And that would be a PR nightmare.

[leapinglizard]

I'm too concerned about the rules to comment with my thoughts most of the time. (I am concerned about posting this) so I wish somethings would change to allow us to openly discuss the game.

[unnie]

I'm too concerned about the rules to comment with my thoughts most of the time. (I am concerned about posting this) so I wish some things would change to allow us to openly discuss the game.

 

Hello guys,

 

The rules never actually stop you from having a decent discussion about thoughts about the game (nor open discussion of it).

 

Freedom of Speech might be something we all want and need, but in forums there are rules that we go by, which means that freedom of speech don't apply here in the exact same way. Also to comment on an earlier comment about "this place being a box where to drop suggestions" - that is not true. All of this gets recorded, and sent to proper authorities all the time, progressively. If my and/or our word is not enough for you, then what is? For you to get to discuss punishments in public? - No, we still won't allow that because it's not decent nor respectful conversation. Also, for instance. If what you say is true, then we wouldn't allow this discussion either, would we?

  You guys are smart, so I know you know how to make the most of all this, while giving us the time and opportunity to improve our rules and TOS. Am I wrong?

 

Thank you.

 

Sincerely, Tomas L.

P.S. If any unfair bans or any wrongdoings are suspected, please PM me (senior mod) in private, so we can fix these things if they have in fact happened.

[James]

What is so troubling is that being able to speak twice in a row is having to be pleaded for in the first place.  Most all forums have general rules that come along with the forum software 

 

This software has the capability of assigning posts by topics and other things that the moderators are taking on themselves.   The "double posting" rule in this company's software is not meant to keep people from speaking.

 

What is disturbing here also is the constant "policing" of the conversations, usually a moderator is called in when there is trouble in the interaction in a thread.  What constant moderator interference does is like a policeman coming to watch over what's being said.  This causes people to not want to post and is intimidating.

 

And when we see what one might call "heavy handed moderation" in which the moderator can alter the rules to go against basic human rights is very much disturbing.  We realize that the moderators are also players in the game.  If a moderator is in favor of whatever the issue is being discussed to penalize a person who is trying to ask for help or speak up, this is biased support and moderation.  The moderators and support need to be independent of the insider cronyism in order to make fair decisions about matters.  In my opinion, as long as the moderators and support are players on the teams, this company will never have a fair reputation.

 

In all fairness in the tread where the player has been penalized by their account being suspended for 13 days now, this person was not given a warning inside the thread to let them know that they were violating a rule.  A new user may not know to go check their emails where the warnings are sent, some people may not go to their emails for days.  This person made posts hours apart, they were not consecutive in time.

[leapinglizard]

I was suspended twice with no warnings at all. Email. In thread any where. I still am unclear why either occurred.

[BruceARee]

I am fairly new to forums as I have hardly ever used them and I have a lot to learn. This double posting on the same thread kinda confuses me. To have conversation I was always taught you speak, I speak, they speak and then all have a chance to reply. Somebody please explain it to me. I need to understand.

 

Also, am I to understand that warnings are issued by email rather than being warned of an infraction in the thread where a wrong was done. Seems it would be more efficient to give the warning in the thread since that is were most of us are looking.

 

As for being a suggestion box, I don't think anyone is calling a suggestion box per say but if people are making suggestions to improve the game isn't really because they like the game and want to see it grow?

 

The forum in my mind is supposed to be a place where folks can come to meet and greet and share game strategy but it seems that to is actually labelled as exploitation. No game can be fully enjoyed without freedoms to discuss how the game is played. For example, What strategy is used to get the most xp for the xp rankings? How does one make 2, 3 or 4 million xp in a week? This is a discussion of strategies not exploitation as long as nothing illegal is imparted.

 

I must say also, I hear many folks talking about bans and suspensions...over small things that don't even make sense...because a moderator either is biased at some point or there is a language barrier or misunderstanding....bottom line, if you keep banning players or suspending them for small unimportant infractions, the forum will cease to thrive and newer players will tend to stay away from the forum.

 

Just things I have noticed in the very short time on the forum. 

[Dogmeat]

What I am saying is that once your posts are edited or censored by the mods, and we're not talking about edits for vulgar language or things of a sensitive nature, then all the forum will be nothing more than a suggestion box. You make a suggestion anonymously and then pray they don't find out it was you.

 

One cannot make opinions or dislikes known, for things about what the game/company is doing that irks/bothers you, the degrees of unfairness, worse case practices performed by mods, poor responses from support...the list goes on. We get "send in a support ticket" and nothing gets done. If something is being done, there is no progress report, no transparency. Otherwise the post just gets edited or simply deleted or worse the topic summarily closed as the mod decided the topic no longer merited further discussion. How is that free to express oneself?

 

I don't think constantly PMing the Senior Mod is a good alternative solution; the fact that option exists really says there are deep issues to resolve. But an open thread such as this is a good sign that something is being done by someone and that someone is willing to try. Your big hurdle is how to convince the population at large, many of whom are of the once bitten, twice shy variety.

[Jagan]

Bruce, when they say double posting they mean two consecutive posts in a row. As far as I know, a player can edit their own posts for some time after making it, so if someone wanted to add something, they could just edit it in.  Something that a mod could do quite easily as well. Also sometimes, especially with players not used to using forums, replying by cell phone can be a pain causing the player to post before he is done. Of course there are intentional abuses in which one player will count down numbers or just fill up replies with nonsense to increase their post count but there is no advantage here in having a large number of posts and if there were heaven knows there are enough counting threads in the off-topic section. 

As far as freedom of speech goes, it does not exist in forums and the rules are at the leisure of the forum owners no matter how arcane or seemingly despotic they may or may not be. 

[BruceARee]

Ahhh, thanks Jagan...I'm learning new things and that is fun 

[LittleOne]

Well---I am talkative and opinionated so I am very lucky I haven't gotten in trouble for double posting yet.  The double posting seems to me like a way of controlling a type of forum "spam".  Which is understandable.  BUT to use that when a person does two posts in a row that are contributing to the conversation---well that is going too far.  I expect a moderator to be able to tell the difference.  AND going in and changing someone's post---well those are fighting words!  If you go in and change my post---you better have a good reason to do it.  Because that is just plain wrong.  You shouldn't be changing a post just because you disagree with it or don't like what is being said.  Posts should be changed only if they are in some kind of violation.

[AngelicaSynn]

... a player can edit their own posts for some time after making it, so if someone wanted to add something, they could just edit it in... 

 

You are quite right about the edit feature, Jagan... also, LittleOne, a second post IS allowed after 30 minutes has passed to allow the possibility of others commenting.  'Double posting' is when the same player makes two, or sometimes several, comments in a row within a short timeframe without allowing time for others to comment on what was said. Hopefully that will clear up any further confusion anyone might have been having.

[LittleOne]

AngelicaSynn, I can understand the 30 minutes.  But is it really necessary?  Did it become that big of a problem that a whole rule needed to made over it?  It seems that a new person could get suspended easily because they aren't aware of this rule.  And it's not something you would think of as being a crime---posting twice in a row---within 5 minutes let's say.  If I want to post, and it's not going thru because someone else is posting---I can try it again.  To me I don't see the big deal.  But I do see the big deal in people getting suspended over it when they meant no harm.

[AngelicaSynn]

Is it necessary, LittleOne?  

 

That depends upon your point of view... on some forums which I have been a participant, your post count determined what features you could access, so newbie users tended to spam-post, just to raise their count...

 

This puts additional 'drag' on a server and can cause lag of either the forum, the game, or both, depending on if the game and forum happen to be hosted on the same physical machine.

 

The developers decided that this would not be the case here, and instituted the rule to ensure that it would not occur.

 

We, as forum participants, agreed to this in order to gain access to these forums.

 

Therefore, since it is quite possible to edit any further comments into your previous post if the 30 minute required time has not expired, we should endevor to follow this rule.

 

Thank you for a further chance to clarify our position as moderators.

 

AS

[LittleOne]

All  makes sense for seasoned users.  But for new users, not so much.  I didn't even know that I could get suspended for two posts in a row until a friend informed me of it. 

 

Also, what items can I open for quantity of posts?  Never knew I could do that either....

 

Did the edit!!!

 

But here is my biggest question:

 

Why suspend someone for making a 2nd post that contributes to the content?  Seems that if that is happening, then the rule should be adjusted.  Maybe a moderator can suspend you for spamming or a moderator can suspend you for putting too many posts just to boost the quantity of posts.  I can trust a moderator to judge those two issues.  But the blanket rule is punishing the innocent---so it should be adjusted.

[leapinglizard]

I just wish you would receive some kind of warning before being suspended